Meet the Press

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday, arrested development. Donald Trump is arrested for the fourth time and becomes the first president to have his mug shot taken. His 18 co-defendants, including his former chief of staff, also surrender after being charged for their efforts to overturn the 2020 Georgia election results.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What has taken place here is a travesty of justice.

CHUCK TODD:

And at the party's first debate, Trump's rivals promise to support him even if he's a convicted felon.

BRETT BAIER:

Would you still support him as your party’s choice?

CHUCK TODD:

As Trump navigates his legal challenges, will any of his political challengers find a path to beat him? Plus, stealing the spotlight. He grabbed all the attention in the first GOP primary debate.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

If you have a broken car, you don’t turn over the keys to the people who broke it again. You hand it over to a new generation to actually fix the problem.

FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:

Now is not the time for on the job training.

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:

I’ve had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like ChatGPT standing up here.

CHUCK TODD:

Vivek Ramaswamy, the millennial entrepreneur who has never held elected office is facing intense scrutiny over his views.

FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:

You have no foreign policy experience and it shows.

CHUCK TODD:

I'll talk to the political outsider who clashed the most with his GOP rivals. And, 2024 vision. Senator Bernie Sanders issues a warning to Democrats about how to win the future.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

There has got to be an ideological change of course.

CHUCK TODD:

I'll ask President Biden's chief rival from 2020 what he wants to see the Democrats focus on for a second Biden term. Joining me for insight and analysis are former Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida, former Republican Governor of North Carolina Pat McCrory, Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute and Markos Moulitsas, the founder of “Daily Kos.” Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning. Donald Trump’s inevitability, the idea that he cannot be beaten in a Republican primary, has been a source of strength for him. At Wednesday night's debate, we saw what a campaign thought could look like on Earth Two without Trump on stage. But we still live on this version of Earth, and until one of Trump's opponents is recognized as a viable challenger by Republican primary voters, it's a debate that may have to be put on hold until 2027. That said, a failure of imagination turned the idea that Trump could never win in 2016 into faulty conventional wisdom. And it's that failure of imagination now to believe he can't lose the Republican primary that we should be cautious of. The main threat to Trump has always been his legal troubles and his campaign may be cashing in on the mug shot released after his booking on Thursday night right now, but it is a visual representation of the four indictments and 91 felony counts against him and the political trouble they may represent. That’s to a whole bunch of unknown, unknowns with the legal calendar. Currently, all 18 of Trump's co-defendants have now turned themselves in, in the Georgia racketeering case. Two have already requested a speedy trial, leading to questions about whether they might cooperate. Kenneth Chesbro, he’s the lawyer who wrote the campaign memo that essentially was used and laid out the plot to use false slates of electors to subvert the 2020 election. And Sidney Powell wants a speedy trial. She’s the lawyer who allegedly accessed and removed voter data in a county in Georgia, as well as filing numerous unsuccessful lawsuits on Trump's behalf alleging fraud. John Eastman, another lawyer who helped develop the plan to use slates of false electors to keep Trump in office, is also likely to request a speedy trial as well. So, consider a televised trial, Georgia law, of these defendants starting as early as this October and potentially before any trial that features Donald Trump starts, Fani Willis could lay out the case against Trump for a nation ahead of the start of the primary calendar. That’s an unknown, unknown I’m pointing out here. Some of Trump's Republican opponents are tiptoeing towards pointing out that a campaign year full of courtroom motions and trials might not be great general election politics for the GOP.

[START TAPE]

FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:

We have to face the fact that Trump is the most disliked politician in America. We can't win a general election that way.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

And yet, at least six of the eight Republicans on stage in Milwaukee, including Haley, raised their hands to confirm that they would support Trump in 2024, even if he is convicted by a jury of his peers. And they made the odd decision to pile on political newcomer Vivek Ramaswamy who may be surging, but is still barely cracking double digits.

[START TAPE]

FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:

Now is not the time for on the job training. We don't need to bring in a rookie. We don't need to bring in people without experience.

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:

I’ve had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like ChatGPT standing up here.

FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:

Under your watch, you will make America less safe. You have no foreign policy experience and it shows.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

The arrows may have come because Ramaswamy took every opportunity on stage to defend and praise the man who wasn’t there, Donald Trump.

[START TAPE]

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

President Trump, I believe, was the best president of the 21st century. It’s a fact.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is the Republican presidential candidate that was at the center of the debate, Vivek Ramaswamy. Mr. Ramaswamy, welcome back to Meet the Press.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

It's good to talk to you, Chad.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with the tragedy that took place in Jacksonville. This is what Sheriff Waters, how he described the incident last night.

[START TAPE]

JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF T.K. WATERS:

This shooting was racially motivated, and he hated Black people. He wanted to kill [BLEEP]. He targeted a certain group of people, and that's Black people. That's what – that’s what he said he wanted to kill. And that's very clear. And I don't know that the targets were specific, but I know that any member of that race at that time was in danger.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Both the FBI and DHS in the last two years have said that racially motivated, violent extremism is on the rise. This is clearly part of that. What would a President Ramaswamy want the Justice Department to do about this racially motivated violence that we're seeing on the rise?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I think that every criminal deserves to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, especially when they're carrying out premeditated crimes like this one. This is a heinous crime. My heart goes out to the families who were affected by this. It is tragic, and this should not be happening in the United States of America. I think the fact of the matter is, Chuck, it is really just a symptom of a deeper, new form of national division that we have created. And I think one of my top jobs as the next U.S. president is really to lead with a national tone of character that reminds us of how we are all united across our diverse attributes. I think part of the problem is we have obsessed so much over racial and other genetic differences that we have forgotten all of the ways we're really the same as a country. And I do think we need a leader in the White House developing that national character for this country again. We also do have a mental health epidemic across this country, Chuck, that really is reflective of a hunger for purpose and meaning. We need to fill that void, address the mental health epidemic. But this is a tragedy and deserves to be called out as heinous. That's exactly what it was.

CHUCK TODD:

Why do you think there are more race-based violent crimes on the right than on the left? Why is this a little more pervasive – a lot more pervasive on the right?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well, the fact of the matter is I think that there's a lot more violence that's also pervasive in parts of the country that supposedly are left-wing voter bases. So, I don't think this is a left versus right issue, and I don't think we should try to politicize this through partisan goggles either, Chuck, especially in the wake of a tragedy like this one. The fact is there are more Black men --

CHUCK TODD:

Do you ignore the manifesto?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– dying on the South Side of Chicago.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you ignore the elements that allowed this manifesto to spread online, and that what we’re – you know, it does feel as if social media --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well --

CHUCK TODD:

– connects some of these hateful ideologies.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well, the fact of the matter is I do think we have two standards that we're even applying, if we're having a conversation about manifestos. We still have not yet even seen the manifesto of that transgender shooter in Nashville of a Christian school, and yet here, we're focusing on the motive. So, if we want to look at this through a politicized lens, let's look at what the political media and the political establishment is doing differentially in how they analyze different crimes and then create a new narrative around it. The fact is what I said in the Nashville shooter case I will say here. Any killing, any mass killing, is heinous. We need to get to the root cause of the mental health epidemic, address that. We need leadership that sets the right tone in this country. But if we are going to talk about manifestos and politicization, Chuck, I think it is incomplete not to look at the absence of releasing that Nashville shooter manifesto even as of today. That's why I personally traveled to Nashville to call for it. And that, I think is the best evidence of real politicization in terms of what the public sees and what the public doesn't. I want to apply one standard --

CHUCK TODD:

I --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– for everybody. I don't --

CHUCK TODD:

Okay.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– want to look at this through partisan goggles. I want to look at this through one standard of the rule of law for everybody.

CHUCK TODD:

You believe racism is a mental health issue?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well, I do believe that racism, in many cases, is manufactured in a way that creates more racism in this country. I cannot think of a greater way, Chuck, of driving racism in this country than to take something else away from someone based on the color of their skin. And so, is there existing racism in the United States? Of course there is. But those last, burning embers of racism, the last thing I want to do is throw kerosene on it. And yet, that's exactly what I believe the modern culture is doing by creating race-based quota systems that deny people access to goods or services based on the color of their skin. The right answer to stop discrimination on the basis of race, as John Roberts said it, is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. And I am genuinely worried that we're seeing a new wave of anti-Black and anti-Hispanic racism --

CHUCK TODD:

Just so you know --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– as a consequence of the so-called --

CHUCK TODD:

– your argument comes across --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– antiracist movements.

CHUCK TODD:

Your argument comes across as blaming those that are trying to create equality for the rise in racism.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well, the fact is, Chuck, I don't want to be playing a blame game. I want to be going towards a solution. And I am genuinely worried that those who earnestly espouse the view -- I'm going to quote Ibram Kendi from his book directly. I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth. Says: “The right answer to past discrimination is present discrimination, the right answer to present discrimination is future discrimination.” I believe the people who hold that view are earnest about it, but I think they're wrong, and I think that that's actually creating more discrimination and more division in our country. And I think the right answer is actually to restore colorblind equality, colorblind meritocracy, embrace what unites us across our diversity instead of celebrating our skin-deep diverse attributes. That's how I think we reunite this country, Chuck. And it's not blaming anybody else for having a different point of view, but I do think that, as a leader, it's my job to articulate exactly how we will unite this country, and that's exactly how I'm going to do it.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me move to the debate. And a lot of people are asking this question –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Sure.

CHUCK TODD:

If you believe Donald Trump is the greatest president of the 21st century, he's running. Why are you running against him? Why do you think his second term won't be as good as his first?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Well, look, I did say he's the best president of the 21st century. From George Bush, to Barack Obama, to Joe Biden, to Donald Trump, I think it's not even close who was the best of those presidents. In my book, I judge by results. That being said, I believe I can take the America First agenda even further than Donald Trump did. I think I will be more effective in uniting this country in the process. Look at the way we're running this campaign. I'm not leaving any state behind, any city behind, no American left behind from the South Side of Chicago, to Kensington, to places where traditional Republicans don't go. I think I am best positioned to deliver a landslide election, a multiethnic, working-class majority. And I do think that a landslide is what we need in this country, not another 50.1% election. And I'm the only candidate in this race who can actually deliver that.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, a political neophyte outsider became president and couldn't get a lot of the things done that he wanted to get done, in Donald Trump. Why do you think somebody with less experience than Donald Trump had is somehow going to make the federal government function a way that you're outlining?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, I think there's three things I would say. The first is we have that experience to learn from. I want to build on the foundation that Trump laid. Frankly, I will invite him as an advisor and a mentor. I don't want to re-learn the same lessons. I want to pick up where he left off in taking on the administrative state. The second thing, Chuck, is I do think it needs to be an outsider to take on that administrative state, but I also think it needs to be an outsider who has a deep, first-personal understanding of the laws and constitution of this country. I think Trump was, in many cases, duped by his managerial advisors, for example, who said that you can't fire employees in the federal government due to civil service protections. Read the law. Turns out those civil service protections only apply to individual firings, not to mass layoffs. Mass layoffs are absolutely what I will bring to the D.C. bureaucracy. And I think the fact that I am from a different generation, Chuck, will be an asset. I'm able to reach young Americans. I'm able to reach people who haven't traditionally --

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– been brought into the mold of Republican politics. I don't even talk about Republicans and Democrats. And so, I think I will be able to build a greater moral mandate across generations that helps unite Americans around the America First agenda rather than making it a strictly partisan affair.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me bring up a couple questions you didn't get a chance to answer at the debate. Most of the candidates onstage Wednesday night said --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Sure.

CHUCK TODD:

– Mike Pence did the right thing on January 6th. Do you agree?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I would have done it very differently. I think that there was a historic opportunity that he missed to reunite this country in that window. What I would have said is, "This is a moment for a true national consensus," where there's two elements of what's required for a functioning democracy in America. One is secure elections, and the second is a peaceful transfer of power. When those things come into conflict, that's an opportunity for heroism. Here's what I would have said, "We need single-day voting on Election Day. We need paper ballots, and we need government-issued ID matching the voter file. And if we achieve that, then we have achieved victory, and we should not have any further complaint about election integrity."

CHUCK TODD:

So, what --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, I would have --

CHUCK TODD:

– would you have done?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– driven it through the Senate.

CHUCK TODD:

So, what would you have done as Mike Pence? You would have not --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, in my capacity --

CHUCK TODD:

– certified the election?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, in – in my capacity as president of the Senate, I would have led through that level of reform, then, on that condition, certified the election results, served it up to the president, President Trump then, to sign that into law, and on January 7th, declared the reelection campaign pursuant to a free and fair election. I think that was a missed opportunity. But that's the kind of –

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– spirit we're going to need to unite this country rather than –

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– sweeping those concerns under the rug.

CHUCK TODD:

Eleven months ago – well, excuse me, well no. Excuse me. In – in your book, which wasn't written that long ago, you wrote, "The fact that all of our governmental institutions so unanimously found no evidence of significant fraud is telling. Furthermore, I've talked to many Republicans at all levels of government, and not one has ever presented convincing evidence that the 2020 election was stolen from President Trump. Very few have seriously tried. I don't believe that most Republican politicians actually think the election was stolen." So, you went from there –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, let me address this.

CHUCK TODD:

– and 11 months later, your views have changed on January 6th? Again, this book was written September of 2022 –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Yeah, Chuck, I'm happy to address that if you're – if you’re interested.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Yeah, so, in reading – in exactly that chapter in the book, I drew a sharp distinction between what I did see as the interference in the election that mattered, which is interference by big tech. I'm data driven. There's hard data showing that many voters, many Independent voters, would have changed their result enough to influence the outcome of the election –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– if they had been exposed to what we now know to be the truth about the Hunter Biden laptop story. By contrast, I've also been clear. I have not yet seen evidence that there was ballot fraud of a scale that would have changed that result. I'm just responding to data on both fronts. But the fact of the matter is, if we're looking at reuniting this country, there are serious concerns on both sides, but especially on the right, about the concern of elections, and election interference, and ballot fraud but also big tech interference. And there's a very clear result and way we can address that. I've offered a clear consensus that everybody can get behind. It is practical. And if people really think that debating this issue is a threat to our democracy, that should be an easy consensus to be able to rally around, and that's how I'll lead as president.

CHUCK TODD:

First of all, you never talked about the tech stuff in your book. This is a new thing. It is –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

That’s false, Chuck. It's in the –

CHUCK TODD:

You have not –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Chuck –

CHUCK TODD:

– talked about this Hunter Biden –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

That's absolutely false. In Nation of Victims –

CHUCK TODD:

– aspect – aspect of it. We were looking for it –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Chuck, I think you have not – I think you have not read Nation – I think you have not read “Nation of Victims.” Literally read the book. There is about 20 pages of content devoted to this –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, you didn't write –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– and I also bring it up in “Woke Inc.” –

CHUCK TODD:

– about election fraud that way.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, it’s – it’s – it's fine.

CHUCK TODD:

But –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

You – you don't have an obligation to read my book –

CHUCK TODD:

But let me ask you this, because –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– but if you do –

CHUCK TODD:

– you –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– you could quote it correctly.

CHUCK TODD:

– because you say – well, we have been, and let me quote it again. You're referring to Republicans, "We use stolen election theories as a back door to embracing our own victim identity path – pursuing an easy path to power." Throughout this entire book, you mock the entire January 6th aspect. You – you absolutely criticize Donald Trump for being a sore loser. You write about it in a way of making your point that you think we’ve become a nation of victims. And right now, on TV, you're doing the exact opposite.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I'm not – Chuck, I actually want to be very clear. I preached to conservative audiences last. I was in Iowa over the last two days, and what do I tell them? We're not going to be victims. We're going to be victorious. Whether I'm talking to the left or the right, I say the same thing. I've also been very clear, Chuck, and I want to be clear today, that I would have made very different judgments than Donald Trump did that day and on many of the matters in his path out of office. But there is a difference between a bad judgment and a crime. And what I've been clear about is when we criminalize those bad judgments, that's an abuse of the justice system. It undermines trust not only in our elections but in our justice system. We have to be able to draw those distinctions. And I do think, Chuck, it's going to take that kind of leader –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– who can actually preach truth to both tribes in this country to reunite this country. So, did Donald Trump make all the right judgments? No. I said so then. I say so now. Was that illegal, and should we criminalize it? Absolutely not. But I want to lead this nation forward. That is my goal not to look in the rear view mirror. And in order to do that, I think on the election integrity issue, we have an opportunity to put this debate behind us by single-day voting on Election Day as a national holiday, with paper ballots and government-issued ID. This should not be controversial. And if that helps reunite this country, as I believe it will, that's exactly how I must lead as president. And that's my commitment.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Again, from your book, "No one likes a sore loser. That's one of the worst victim complexes of all." Are you referring to Donald Trump?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I referred in that chapter both to Stacey Abrams and to Donald Trump. And I think that the answer is: we need leaders who ultimately stand for victory over victimhood. We did have a victimhood culture that started on the left in this country: the oppression hierarchy. My worry, Chuck, is that that can spread to the right and the way that this so-called culture war will end is not with a bang but with a whimper, where each side imitates the methods of the other. That related to even some of our earlier conversation on seeing each other based on the color of our skin. I think that is deeply divisive. What we need in this country is to revive the shared ideals that unite all of us as Americans: the pursuit of excellence, meritocracy, free speech, the rule of law. I genuinely believe, Chuck, that most Americans--

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah. That I –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– regardless of Black or white --

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– red or blue, share these ideals in common. And that's what I'm reviving.

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But, again, let me go back to quoting you. "The Republican Party seems to be moving towards the position that any races it wins are legitimate and any it loses were stolen. It's just the preferred conservative brand of victimhood, a knee-jerk kind of sore losing more common to playground than great republics." You seem to, at the time you wrote your book, believe this was potentially damaging to the rule of law. This was not a way to have a democracy thrive. And you're now speaking in a way that gives, essentially, a permission slip to election deniers to believe there's some truth to something that you yourself have yet to find evidence of.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Chuck, I stand by everything I said. That was a book where 11 of the 12 chapters were dedicated to a lot of left-wing victimhood in this country. But it would have been incomplete for me not to call out my own tribe. And my point is: I don't want to see this in terms of red versus blue. We've created an incentive structure in this country, whoever you are, whatever your skin color, increasingly whatever your political affiliation, to see yourself as a victim. I refuse to see myself as a victim. Hardship is not the same thing as victimhood. We are going through hardship as a country right now, including many conservatives. Hardship is sometimes not a choice. Victimhood is a choice. And so, whoever the American is that I'm talking to, I say we do not choose victimhood. We choose victory. That is who we are. And I think we can be stronger on the other side of it. So, Chuck, this isn't some game of gotcha. I stand by everything I've written over the last three years in the books --

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– that I have, except for a few areas on facts where, as the new facts have come up, I've changed my mind. But on the core theses, I'm in the exact place I am as when I wrote those books. But the point of the matter is I'm not in this race to lead a political party. I am in this race to lead a nation. I'm using the Republican Party as a vehicle to advance an America First agenda that I think many Americans --

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– most Americans --

CHUCK TODD:

One thing I want to clear up --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– can rally behind. That's what we're going to need.

CHUCK TODD:

One thing I want to clear up. I know you've only voted in two presidential elections. Where did you vote --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

– in 2020, and how did you vote?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I voted in Ohio, and during the coronavirus pandemic, I voted by mail.

CHUCK TODD:

You voted --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

That's exactly –

CHUCK TODD:

Vote –

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– how I voted. And you know? And the fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is I think we should have one standard for everybody. But for me, for much of my 20s, I was disaffected from politics. The fact of the matter is I understand why young people are disaffected. I was uninspired by John Kerry and George Bush. I voted Libertarian that year. Or by John McCain and Barack Obama, or Mitt Romney or Barack Obama. So, I don't make any bones about that. I actually talk about it in my speeches.

CHUCK TODD:

And you were also --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

But I also understand --

CHUCK TODD:

– uninspired by Donald Trump in 2016 --

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

– when young people are disaffected.

CHUCK TODD:

– right?

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

I was skeptical of Donald Trump in 2016. That is accurate. Because I had grown up in a generation where I felt like we had been lied to, from weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to the 2008 financial bailouts - those are Republican examples - to Democrat examples of the Russia collusion hoax --

CHUCK TODD:

Okay.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

So, I was deeply skeptical, but I judge based on results, and I voted for him with confidence in 2020.

CHUCK TODD:

Vivek Ramaswamy, like I said, you became the center of the debate. We will be following your campaign as it goes on. Be safe on the trail, and thanks for coming on and sharing your views.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY:

Thank you, Chuck. I appreciate it.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, what is the Biden second-term agenda? Senator Bernie Sanders, President Biden's chief rival in 2020, joins me next with his thoughts on what issues he wants Democrats to be running on.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Back in April Senator Bernie Sanders, who of course was Biden's chief rival in the 2020 Democratic primaries, ruled out a third presidential bid and endorsed Biden for reelection. But on Saturday, Sanders was back in New Hampshire, one of those early presidential states where he won both the 2016 and 2020 primaries to share what he called his concrete agenda for the future of the Democratic Party at the New Hampshire Institute of Politics. Of course, when you go to New Hampshire it sparks some speculation about his own political future.

[START TAPE]

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

It is no secret that I want Joe Biden to be reelected president. If that is going to happen, if we are going to defeat creeping authoritarianism and right-wing extremism, there has got to be an ideological change of course.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

The Independent Senator from Vermont, Bernie Sanders, joins me now. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Thank you for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

So, the fact that you felt the need to do this, should we read into the fact that you don't believe there's a second term agenda yet that Americans can wrap their head around for what a second Biden term would look like?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No. I think what you can read into that is that Biden has every right to be proud of a long series of accomplishments. You know, two and a half, three years ago this country was in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression because of Covid. Today, unemployment is all of 3%. We're gaining new jobs, rebuilding manufacturing. We've invested in the infrastructure. We're making progress, and Biden has a right to be proud of that. The point of my remarks is that you cannot simply, as President of the United States, rest on your laurels. What you have got to understand is that today, for structural reasons that have gone on for decades, tens and tens of millions of people are struggling to put food on the table. They can't afford health care. They can't afford prescription drugs. They can't afford housing. They can't afford childcare. And meanwhile, in the midst of all of that, you have incredible corporate greed, and the billionaire class has never done better. So my message yesterday for the Democrats, not just for the President –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

– is if you want to do well in this election, talk to the needs of the American people, have the guts to take on the big money and trusts who have so much power.

CHUCK TODD:

It sounds like you don't think the phrase "finish the job" is something to rally around, that there

needs to be more than that.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, it’s – yes. You need to recognize that not only have we accomplished a great deal in Biden's first three years, and he deserves credit for that, but there are so many long-term problems that this country is facing. Does anybody in America think that our healthcare system is working? And yet, the insurance companies make tens of billions of dollars, drug companies make tens of billions of dollars. We don't have enough doctors, nurses, mental health providers, pharmacists, dentists. So we need fundamental reform in health care. And by the way, the existential issue of our time is whether or not we address climate change. And we have made some steps forward, but there is no question in mind if we're going to allow our kids and grandchildren to live in a healthy planet, we've got a lot, lot more to do.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think there would be a robust discussion on this on the left if there were a competitive primary? Do you think there should be?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think in this particular time, this particular moment in American history, when we're taking on the, somebody, the former President, who in fact does not believe in democracy, he is an authoritarian, and a very, very dangerous person, I think at this moment there has to be a unification of progressive people in general all of this country, people who are prepared to make sure that women control their own body, that we deal with climate change, that we represent the needs of the working class of this country, and take on the billionaire class.

CHUCK TODD:

One way that you make it clear that age isn't a factor with you is you're pretty energetic, we see you travel the country. You show up, you do interviews. What do you – it is clearly an issue for many voters when it comes to President Biden. He's a year younger than you. Do you have advice to him on how he should assuage those concerns in the public about his age?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Look, when people look at a candidate, whether he's Joe Biden, or Trump, or Bernie Sanders, anybody else, you know, they have to evaluate a whole lot of factors. I, you know, met with the President, I don't know, five or six weeks ago. We had a great discussion. He seemed fine to me. But I think at the end of the day, what we have to ask ourselves is, "What do people stand for?" Do you believe that women have a right to control their own bodies? Well, the President has been strong on that. Do you think that climate change is real, or do you agree with the Republicans that it's a non-issue? Do you think we should raise the minimum wage? Do you think we should reform and take on the pharmaceutical industry? So age is an issue, Chuck, but there are a lot of broader issues than just that.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you about Cornel West. He was a co-chair of your campaign in 2020. He's flirting with a Green Party bid for President. The numbers tell the story between 2016 and 2020. You can directly correlate the two-third party major candidates, the third party candidates, their collective total. That was the difference between Biden winning states and Clinton losing those key states. Are you trying to discourage Cornel West from running?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I've known Cornel for many, many years. He's a very independent-minded guy, he will do what he wants to do. I just think, again, I think Cornel or anybody else can play an important role now about raising issues that are not always discussed. But at the end of the day, I think the progressive community in general and the American people have got to make a decision as to whether we stand for democracy or authoritarianism, or whether or not we're going to represent working class families.

CHUCK TODD:

One of your chief political advisors is concerned that Cornel West is being taken advantage of by maybe people that simply want his name on the ballot. Do you have those concerns?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

I really haven't followed it that closely.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Bernie Sanders, the Independent Senator from Vermont who we saw in New Hampshire yesterday. Thanks for coming on and sharing your views with us. Good to see you.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, the Republican presidential hopefuls tried to make the case for why they are the best alternative to Donald Trump. But do Republican voters really want an alternative? Panel is next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Panel is here: Former Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida, Markos Moulitsas, the founder of “The Daily Kos,” former Republican Governor Pat McCrory of North Carolina and Danielle Pletka, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Well, let me start with the visual that I think will live for quite some time, and that is the show of hands on Donald Trump. Let's play it again.

[START TAPE]

BRET BAIER:

If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? Please raise your hand if you would.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Dani Pletka, it was a moment, especially it, like, cascaded like a wave and it was sort of like the most enthusiastic was Vivek. That's not surprising. And then everybody else. It was this reluctance that –

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Well, there was that Christie weird hand signal thing and, yeah. Look, I – I – I do see it slightly differently because they all went onto that stage having made a pledge that they would support the party's nominee. So they are –

CHUCK TODD:

Never did say that they had to support a convicted felon in that pledge.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

The party's nominee, there's no asterisk there that says he can't have a mugshot, right? So I – I feel for them in the sense that they – they were sort of like, none of them wanted to raise their hand except Vivek, right? None of them wanted to. But I think they all felt like they had to.

CHUCK TODD:

Pat, how did Vivek end up the center of attention?

PAT McCRORY:

Because –

CHUCK TODD:

I don't understand that game theory because leaving DeSantis alone seemed to be, you know, everybody else truly trying to actually get to Trump, you have to go through DeSantis –

PAT McCRORY:

I'm a big –

CHUCK TODD:

– before you get –

PAT McCRORY:

– Eagles fan and their famous song, “The New Kid in Town,” it applies in politics too. And he's the new kid in town, and he wants to get as much attention as possible. And he'll say and do anything to get that – that attention. And he fulfilled that objective. But he also had some previous new kids in town who now have some maturity, some political maturity, like Chris Christie, Pence, and also Nikki Haley. And they went, "We're not going to put up with this." And that was a – that was a tough debate decision because, the more they jump on him, the more attention he gets. But they drew him out. I mean, he – he – he’s almost, from a foreign policy perspective, he's the Neville Chamberlain, he's not Ronald Reagan.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, but are they drawing him out –

PAT McCRORY:

And he – he –

CHUCK TODD:

– or were they really trying to attack Donald Trump?

PAT McCRORY:

– he – he’s asking for a revolution.

CHUCK TODD:

No, no, no. But is this – the other candidates the equivalent of punching your couch cushion? You can't attack Donald Trump so they're going to attack Vivek?

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

I don't know, that's an interesting theory. I actually hadn't thought about that. I – I – I don't think most of them wanted to attack him. I think he just got on their nerves. He was so fricking obnoxious. He was a little –

CHUCK TODD:

I was kidding.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

--chihuahua biting at their ankles and they finally couldn't take it anymore. Who is this – who is this? I mean, can you imagine somebody who admitted he hadn't even thought about foreign policy until six months ago mansplaining to Nikki Haley who was the U.N. ambassador about foreign policy? I mean, they just couldn't help themselves. That's – that’s what I think.

CHUCK TODD:

Stephanie, what did you see?

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

You know, I think that he embodied exactly what the – Harvard University calls him the section guy. Josh Barro wrote about this. He's the guy who speaks in class incessantly but doesn't say anything of merit or of substance. And everybody can't stand him, but they kind of have to still be on his good side because one day, he's going to be running for public office. And here he is, running for president.

CHUCK TODD:

Dani, what does it say that he’s – this guy successfully hacked his way into the center stage of the party this easily? Just that the information ecosystem just sort of olé-ed him to center stage.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I think that is exactly the right question to ask. And, look, I – I have a – I have a Vivek-style answer, a glib answer for you. Look, everything has become like reality TV. This is how we ended up with the guy who kept saying, "You're fired," and everybody was like, "Oh my gosh –"

CHUCK TODD:

So he's a Kardashian?

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Exactly. He’s – he’s – he – and he’s – there's no accountability in politics, right? He can say whatever he wants.

PAT McCRORY:

That's right.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

And if he said something different the day before, no one cares because he's there and he believes it.

CHUCK TODD:

He's entertaining you in the moment.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

And he's entertaining you, exactly, in the moment.

PAT McCRORY:

He’s – he’s – he told everyone--

CHUCK TODD:

But, you know, some voters did want to see some – some toughness. You know, a lot of times, candidates want to tell us, "Oh, nobody asked us about Trump on the trail." Here's Tim Scott, on the trail, being asked by a Republican about Donald Trump. Watch this.

[START TAPE]

DAVID COFFEY:

You're not standing toe-to-toe with somebody who you don't accept as the president.

SEN. TIM SCOTT:

Well, we have to disagree on the foundational premise of the question. And the premise is the question is why don't you stand up to Trump? You're just wrong that I don't, that's the first part –

DAVID COFFEY:

I never heard you – I didn't hear you the other night stand up and say, "I can't accept him as president."

SEN. TIM SCOTT:

Do you want to have a conversation or do you want to have a monologue? I'm happy to listen if you want to have a dialogue, like I'll be speaking as well.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Pat, that escalated quickly. I was stunned that Tim Scott sort of almost went after the voter. The voter didn't seem like he was being angry.

PAT McCRORY:

He knew he was being filmed. And he also knew he didn't want to irritate the Trump base.

CHUCK TODD:

Wow.

PAT McCRORY:

And, that’s – listen, I'm an example of that. I had a 30-point lead at one time in a U.S. Senate race, and the minute Trump went against me, I dropped. That's the power of Donald Trump. And you – the interview you did earlier with the new kid in town, he's talking about a revolution while on the same interview he also said he's going to change the tone. I mean, that's within 48 hours.

CHUCK TODD:

Stephanie, you – you represented the – one of the swingiest districts of the country. What are people hearing?

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

Well, you know, 1) I think that was, like, a – a mistake. I mean, you never engage with your voters that way on camera or not. I mean, that's just like a rookie mistake in – in – in engaging with voters. But in a swing district, you know, I think they are really wondering why we're faced with these two options. Like – and this debate was sort of separate from what the presumptive nominations are going to be for both parties. And, you know, we're a country of 300 million people, and we don't have better alternatives?

CHUCK TODD:

I want to bring up one other thing about our Iowa poll that was stunning cause I think it tells us the way the Republican Party has changed. Let me show you what the makeup of the Iowa caucus, the Republican caucus electorate was in 2016. It was 50/50, slight advantage male, 52% - 48%. According to our poll that we released this week, the likely Republican electorate is now 61% male, 39% female. This is the Trump effect. Whatever we want to talk about it, this appears to be the relationship effect, does it not, Dani?

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Well, more men are turning out. But I think it's interesting that you don't have any breakdown there so I don't know what –

CHUCK TODD:

No, it is smaller, but –

DANIELLE PLETKA:

– the racial makeup is. I don’t know what the racial makeup is.

CHUCK TODD:

– it's the same. This is Iowa. It's all the same except for gender. Everything else is the same, on ideology, on college education. It is – we are seeing more men identify as Republicans and more women not.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Well, there is – that's something that the Republican Party needs to deal with because there are a lot of women in this country.

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

And we just had the summer of Barbie and Taylor Swift tour. I mean, women are having a moment in this country where they have an economic impact. They are having a voice. And they are – they’re going to want to go to polls and – and reflect that.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Right. I thought - that's why I thought Nikki Haley did a good job –

PAT McCRORY:

Absolutely.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

– in presenting that face.

CHUCK TODD:

She potentially has room to grow if she can somehow get women to show up.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

So, there's a lot of –

CHUCK TODD:

– pretty quickly.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

You know, everybody's afraid of going after Trump, right? But if you look at primary polling, Trump's around 50, 52%. Half of the party isn't on board. Now, if there's ten people splitting the rest of the vote, that's a problem. But if you can consolidate.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, you have allowed me to tease really well to our Data Download. When we come back, there is a divide in the Republican Party among voters who believe President Biden was legitimately elected and those who still believe Donald Trump's lies. We’re going to show you what we learned from that split inside the Republican electorate in Iowa. Data Download is next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. It's Data Download time. There are a lot of ways to try to understand the 2024 Republican primary electorate, but we got some new data that suggests one of the more crucial splits may be between those Republicans who believe Donald Trump won the 2020 election, and those who don't believe and actually acknowledge that the former president lost. Let me show you here. It's almost a pretty even split. Barely a majority believe Donald Trump's false assertions. 41% of Iowa Republican caucus goers do not believe Donald Trump's claims. And you know what? It leads to some interesting splits. Your favorability of Donald Trump depends on whether you believe him. Those that believe him, 92% favorable rating. Those that don't believe him, just 30% have a favorable rating here. As you can see, DeSantis, Scott, and Ramaswamy all have more evenly divided favorable ratings among both groups. In theory, they might be able to unify the two groups. Donald Trump, not so much. Shows you a potential way to build a coalition. Look at the divide between these two groups, again, 51/41 here. Gun enthusiasts. Much more likely to be a gun enthusiast if you're in the "believe" category, 43% "not believe." Religious affiliation, more devoutly religious, those that believe Donald Trump's lies. You're more likely to be moderate if you don't believe Donald Trump's lies about the election. And as you can see here, the biggest divide among those that believe and don't believe? Your college education status. Nearly 60% have a bachelor's degree, among those that do not believe Trump's false assertions. And it also leads to some interesting splits on some key issues, use of military at the border, gender-affirming care ban for minors. As you can see here, significant divides. But among the most significant might be the idea of more aid for Ukraine. Just a quarter of those that believe Trump's lies support more aid for Ukraine. Over half who do not believe Trump's lies support more aid for Ukraine. So, as you follow this primary season, keep track of those that believe the election – the election lies of Donald Trump and those that don't inside the Republican electorate. Monday will mark the 60th anniversary of the March on Washington where nearly a quarter million Americans gathered on the National Mall in the fight for civil rights. Some know the event best as the day Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his "I have a dream" speech where he brought attention to race relations, police brutality, and voting rights, many of the same issues we're still dealing with today. Three days ahead of the March, Dr. King responded to some of his critics right here on Meet the Press.

[START TAPE]

DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.:

I'm sure that many whites, both North and South, have the feeling that we are pushing things too fast and that we should cool off a while, slow up for a period. I cannot agree with this at all for I think there can be no gainsaying of the fact that the Negro has been extremely patient. We have waited for well now 345 years for our basic constitutional and God-given rights. And we still confront the fact that we are at the bottom of the economic ladder. I think instead of slowing up, we must push at this point and we must continue to move on. And I'm convinced that our moving on will not only help the Negro cause, so to speak, but the cause of the whole of America. Because the shape of the world today just doesn't permit our nation the luxury of an anemic democracy.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Those words may be 60 years old, but they have an impact today. When we come back, who has more to lose if a third party candidate jumps into the presidential race? The panel's next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. So let's look at a Biden general election campaign and this idea of a third party. Pat, you are a big part of No Labels. You guys are recruiting candidates. What is this ticket going to look like, and is this a 100% commitment that there is going to be a ticket from No Labels?

PAT McCRORY:

Well, Nikki Haley in the debate confirmed that 65% of the people are disgusted with both Trump and Biden being our only choices. They're asking, "Isn't America better than this? Can't we have a better choice?" And the momentum, the movement of No Labels is on fire right now. People are looking for another potential candidate --

CHUCK TODD:

I get that people don't want --

PAT McCRORY:

And I know -- wait a minute. There are a lot of people --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

No, they're not.

PAT McCRORY:

There are a lot of people --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

No, they're not.

PAT McCRORY:

There are a lot of people – I'm telling you right now. A lot of people who predicted Trump would never be president are the same people who are saying, "There's no way in hell a third party can win." I'm telling you. We've never had 65% --

CHUCK TODD:

Go, Markos.

PAT McCRORY:

– of the people disgusted --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

So, No Labels --

PAT McCRORY:

– with both parties.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– is literally a movement that says, "We stand for nothing." Imagine going to Walmart --

PAT McCRORY:

That is so –

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– or Target and seeing no labels on a product.

PAT McCRORY:

You haven't read obviously the –

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

The products are the problem.

PAT McCRORY:

– 30-issue statement --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

No, here.

PAT McCRORY:

– of No Labels.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

The issue statement ignores abortion. And it has such --

PAT McCRORY:

You missed the whole --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– barn-burning issues such as medical --

PAT McCRORY:

You never read it.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– tort reform. That'll light up the audience.

PAT McCRORY:

You have not read it.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

So the –

PAT McCRORY:

He hasn’t read it.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– reality is it's financed, industry heavy. Oh, I read it. No, I actually did read it. I read it last night.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

That's why he couldn't sleep.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

Yeah, really.

PAT McCRORY:

Well, Nikki Haley --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

So.

PAT McCRORY:

– basically repeated the No Labels agenda --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

So the problem isn't they don't like Biden or Trump. It's that you are creating this idea that there's a mythical unicorn creature that will agree with these people who want something else. That doesn't exist. When Magellan polled Manchin and Huntsman, it's like what? 12% --

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I don't know, Markos.

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

– 15%? And they wouldn’t even get that much.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I don't know. I will say -- and, again, this is anecdotal conversations at my house. Is that – does that reflect the country? I don't know. But I will say that none of us want to vote for Trump, and none of us want to vote for Biden --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

I want to vote for Biden.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

No, I know who you want to vote for, dude. That wasn't a question. But --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

That's right. Your house.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

– average people – my house – don't want to vote for Biden, don't want to vote for Trump. And I don't think it's crazy. We do want to vote for somebody.

CHUCK TODD:

Stephanie, you were ideologically in the middle. I wanted some ideological diversity, and we got a lot of it here. So where are you on this?

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

Well, I think I agree that when I have conversations with people in the swing part of what used to be a swing state, they say, you know, both presumptive nominees are running on a, "I'm better than the alternative," campaign, right? Biden said in the last campaign, "Don't judge me against the Almighty. Judge me against the alternative." That's not going to be enough because people are saying to themselves, "Why are these our only alternatives?" Biden has to give people a reason to vote for him, not just voting against Trump --

CHUCK TODD:

Markos, are you comfortable --

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

– if he wants to win.

CHUCK TODD:

Are you comfortable that there isn't a Democratic primary? Would you like to see Biden have to --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

No, no, no. There's a reason.

CHUCK TODD:

– come up with a better case?

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

Biden's actually very popular among Democrats. In Civiqs polling – Civiqs with a “q” – Biden is sitting around 80% with Democrats. There's no space. You think there's no space for an anti-Trump? There's really no space for an anti-Biden. And, there’s a reason – you talk about, you know, popularity? You see – right now, you see Republicans going to groundbreaking ceremonies for Build Back Better and for Inflation Reduction Act, taking credit for projects that they voted against.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Let the lady speak.

FMR. REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:

I actually would say that there's not competition because a lot of these people are younger. The bench is younger, and they're preserving their ability to run in the future, and they don't want to go up against a sitting president. That's why we don't have options.

CHUCK TODD:

Pat, can you give us some names? Because, you know, Manchin and Huntsman, that's not going to get you your unicorn. What other candidates --

PAT McCRORY:

I'm just saying, I don't think there's going to be a shortage --

CHUCK TODD:

Is Will Hurd one of your candidates?

PAT McCRORY:

I don't think there'll be a shortage of candidates --

CHUCK TODD:

Why can't you guys name some names?

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

Who is it?

PAT McCRORY:

Because we want to go through a good process. We're going to have a convention in April. And we're going to be very transparent with the American people, as we were with the 30 issues, common sense issues, that we presented --

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

So who funds your movement? Are we going to talk about transparency?

PAT McCRORY:

What's that?

MARKOS MOULITSAS:

Who is – the funding?

PAT McCRORY:

The same people who have groups that are funded with MoveOn.org that --

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

PAT McCRORY:

– are trying to stop us --

CHUCK TODD:

People.

PAT McCRORY:

– from getting on the ballot.

CHUCK TODD:

This is a discussion that has to end because of time, but it will not end --

PAT MCCRORY:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

– other than that. All right. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.